Rookie Corner 495

61 comments on “Rookie Corner 495”

1. Morning everyone!

   Congratulations to Big Dave’s Blog for hitting 70 MILLION page views this evening 🎉🎉👏👏

   Thanks for having a go at my latest RC. If anybody puts “AgentB” as the answer to 22d, I shall be very upset 😅😆

2. Lots of tick on our pages with some like 24a that called for a real trawling of the memory banks to remember.
   The only one that defeated us, and we still can’t get it after revealing the answer, is 12a.
   Our two top of the pops are 6d and 31a.
   Thanks AgentB.

   1. 12a there’s an expression which involves the tennis ‘synonym’ for zero and the solution

   2. I think 12a is a cryptic definition with the nothing being love.

   3. Thanks Kiwis! It always amazes me how quickly you guys complete the rookie crosswords an hour after they go up.

      For 12d if you want to read my reasoning behind it have a look at my reply to Huntsman’s comment below. I won’t be doing any more clues like that 🤣

      Hope you’ve been enjoying the rugby too.

3. A good start to my Monday crossword solving. Definitely a ‘start with the Downs’ crossword and the NW corner was the last to be completed. I too liked 6d and 31a, and also 13a and 24a

   Thanks AgentB and, in advance, to Prolixic

   1. Thanks Sue 😊

4. Great fun which cheered me up on a dismal morning – thanks to AgentB.
   I think there are a few things which don’t quite work but they’re outweighed by the innovative thinking on display. My ticks went to 11a, 30/27, 31a, 6d and 23d.

   1. Thanks Gazza for the kind comments! Glad it brightened up a dismal morning. Was there anything in there specifically which you’d not want to see again in a crossword, other than what’s already been said?

5. Well done on putting this together AgentB, some real.smiles in there even if the surface reads suffered a tad as a result. On that subject, what really makes a Rookie puzzle seem like a “rookie puzzle” are surface reads that involve leaps of faith, not that yours were that bad.
   I’ve not gone through all the parsings, I’ll leave that to others and Prolixic and I presume all your abbreviations are supported by Chambers (when I do my puzzles I restrict myself to Telegraph approved abbreviations). I can’t quite see the need for the ellipses between between 20 and 21a and I noticed that you’ve used “love” for zero or nothing twice. Is 30a just a cryptic definition as my first thought was reverse anagram (but that wouldn’t work). All small points in a very enjoyable outing my favourites being the clever (if I’m parsing it correctly) 11a along with 24a plus 6&23d.
   Thanks AgentB and in advance Prolixic.

   1. Thanks Stephen for your kind comments and really helpful advice!

      Well spotted on the repetition, I shouldn’t have had two ‘loves’ (lol) and can’t believe I got away with that. Yep, 30a is a basic cryptic gag for a room where you might be changing letters around. I like my cryptic puns so I’m not surprised if solvers are trying to find something more complicated.

      With Chambers abbreviations, let’s not get stuck into that again but some of the comments at the bottom were ridiculous. Yeah I made a mistake because that what rookies do. C=many is in the usual suspects right here and everyone knows it but because it’s not in Chambers they pretend not to? Makes me want to use it more often 🤣🤣 Big Dave used to give this attitude short shrift in the old days.

      If there are examples of surfaces you would have written differently to improve them, please feel free to say, it’d be handy for the melting pot.

      Looking forward to the next Dharma 🍻

6. You are becoming a prolific contributor to Rookie Corner, AgentB, and for me this was your best yet. I found this less difficult than your previous offerings and I thought the whole thing was very creditable albeit with a few rough edges. Your brevity is commendable and has been achieved while maintaining reasonable surface readings for the most part.

   The rough edges (mainly minor):
   4a – I can’t find any justification for c = many.
   12a – I couldn’t parse this until I read some of the foregoing comments. I think it’s probably a step too far.
   21a – I don’t think you can use “essentially” to remove two letters from the start and one letter from the end of the fodder.
   24a – Needs an American indicator. (The BRB agrees!)
   29a – I can’t find any justification for GE as an abbreviation.
   31a & 1d – You don’t need the As.
   7d – I don’t think you should use “cuts” to remove two letters.
   14d – an excellent clue but I can’t see what purpose “alas” is fulfilling.
   17d – I can’t parse this although I can see it is probably something to do with “hums” and “ringers”, but I can’t see what the ‘n’ is doing and the surface of this one is decidedly dodgy.

   I had a lot of ticks, with 15a, 5d, 6d, 14d, 23d & 25d my top picks.

   Well done and thank you, AgentB. Thanks too in advance to Prolixic.

   1. RD, 4a. It’s an anagram (awful) of CESSPIT featuring [or containing] many (C = century/100).

      1. Jose, I know it’s an anagram, but (despite your explanation) I don’t think that C is an acceptable abbreviation for many. Let’s see what Prolixic has to say about it.

         1. It’s in the “usual suspects” on this very site 😉

         2. Large number, many, etc has been used lots of times to trigger C in the answer. Of course, Prolixic will give his verdict later but it doesn’t stop people commenting in the meantime.

         3. I agree with you RD, hence my comment about abbreviations being supported by Chambers, C for many certainly wouldn’t be acceptable in The Telegraph.

            1. From the DT Big Book of Cryptic Crosswords No 3 (page 164):

               8d Reflected when many made cuts (6)

               (Chewed)

         4. RD. See my evidence in my reply to SL, above.

   2. 17d. The ‘n’ is simply a shortening of “and”. You need synonyms for smells “and” bells (begining with D), then remove the ends from each.

      1. Yes, specifically this is a church term so I understand there will be head-scratching, Prolixic will know it though!

   3. 21a. I took “essentially” or “at the heart of” to be a luker indicator. Essentially/at the heart of doesn’t have to mean exactly/symmetrically in the centre/core.

      1. I think it does. You can’t use ‘essentially consecutive’ to clue EC.

         1. Indeed, you can’t – in that case the convention is established. But using essentially (meaning at the heart of/within/inside) as a lurker indicator (which I assumed it was and AgentB has confirmed), then the lurking word doesn’t have to be centrally/symmetrically placed inside the fodder phrase.

   4. Thank you RD! As always you’ve sensed some of my setting questions 👍 That will all wait until review time but just a couple:
      21a – a plain old hidden word indicator
      29a – how embarrassing. I set this before buying my BRB and I know I saw it somewhere official but now can’t find it anywhere.
      14d – a cheap joke for laughs

   5. Hi Rabbit Dave, just a quick note of thanks for your really in-depth comment, helpful pointers and kind thoughts. A lot of it has been covered now (for the intentions on 12a, see my reply to Huntsman) but a couple more questions for you:

      31a/1d, yes you’re right, I added the ‘A’ to 31a at the last moment before submission and that was daft. With 1d though, doesn’t the surface read better with the ‘A’? I was surfacing on the idea of a yummy processed cheese; the lack of article make it sound more unwieldy, like I’m talking about a gem lettuce. What do you think?

      7d, yep. I couldn’t find an indicator I needed, do you know of one which does that?

      29a, do you know I misread “General Electric” in the actual paper BRB as “General Election”! Whoops 🤣🤣

7. Beaten by 12a & still don’t understand it despite Stephen & Sue explaining it in the comments. Didn’t find it particularly straightforward & especially so in the SW. Hadn’t appreciated 18d was synonymous with an offering (only knew it in the drink context) & can’t see why alas is required at 14d & would have twigged the answer sooner without it. Unable to parse 30a/27d but otherwise think I have them sorted Enjoyed the solve & any guzzle that has words like 24a&17d in it is alright in my book. Top 3 for me – 31a + 2&6d.
   Thanks & well done AgentB

   1. H, 12a. Nothing (ie “love”) will trump the answer.

   2. Thanks Huntsman! I love words like that too. Do you remember that 17d came up in a backpager the other week? I could’ve hit my head against a brick wall in frustration 🤣

      12a, all you had to do was replace “nothing” in the clue with “love” and then answer the question. I don’t think the phrase is as well-known as I thought. I know from researching older RC puzzles that multi-step clues can be frowned upon but I wanted to test the water with a basic one. I shan’t be doing any more 🤔😅

8. Hi AgentB – I really enjoyed the large majority of this amusing and in places innovative puzzle. Some great clueing, and I’d place the difficulty level at traditional late-week DT backpager. Despite the comments above I still don’t really ‘get’ 12a or 14d; despite the instructions in 15a being so clear I still managed to write in one of the names of the Spawn Of Satan first, and it took a long time to see my error! OK, so there were a number of minor points, but for me these are the only ones I would comment on:

   2d – I’m still unconvinced that dead=down, but loved the clue anyway;
   5d – not sure that ‘famously’ serves any purpose;
   7d – can ‘cuts’ direct the removal of two letters?

   Otherwise, what great fun! 11a the runaway COTD, brilliant. Other podium places to 30a/27d, 31a, and the laugh-out-loud 23d.

   Many thanks indeed, you’re coming along in leaps and bounds. Thanks also in advance to Prolixic

   Comments first –

   1. MG, 2d. Maybe it’s dead = down in the sense of kaput/not working/out of acrion – the phone line is dead/down?

      1. Yeah, dead=fallen, but I agree it’s not perfect is it. Imagine an army situation “Commander, the building is clear – all enemies are down!”
         I’ve been trying to get away from stretched synonyms as they don’t make for fun crosswords when I’m solving. Out of interest my original clue was “Prepare to launch a TV programme (9)“, but I had an amusing mental image of Dracula going splat on the floor during live TV so went with that instead.

   2. 12a. It’s Nothing (ie “love”) will trump the answer. Apparently, according to Google, the slogan “love trumps hate” is a popular phrase often used to express the idea that love and compassion are more powerful than hate and intolerance.

      1. Thanks Jose – not an expression I’ve ever heard, possibly because I have always steered clear of social media, twitter & so forth and it strikes me as one of those trite lines dreamt ( ;) ) up by “keyboard warriors”.

      2. Hi Jose, just a quick thank you for your comments throughout, helping solvers with the parsing. What did you think of the puzzle? Anything you’d like to have seen done differently? All the best 🍻

         1. AB. I don’t normally solve the RC puzzles in the grid but I have read and parsed all the clues in my head whilst reading/replying to comments left by others. I like to respond to commentors to help support Rookie setters and provide some balance because the regulars often jointly condemn the same few clues for the same (wrong) reasons and then Prolixic disagrees and upholds them – as with this puzzle. This involves me gainsaying people (and I’m not always right) and doesn’t win any friends. But that’s fine – I don’t come on here to engage in general gossipy socialisng, just to seek the truth re cryptic clues. I thought your puzzle was a really good effort and your “score” was lower than I expected after initially reading the comments. I think P has been fair/reasonable/correct with his review and you should take heed as he is an expert – I’m definitely not. Though, unindicated Americanisms don’t ever bother me and the structure/relationship between word-play/definition has never concerned me much. As long as the wordplay is good/works and the definition is valid, I’m not too worried about what links them together. But ground rules/conventions are necessary because rampant clue-writing anarchy would not be a good thing at all.

            1. Thanks Jose, it’s great that you do this, really appreciated. I try to comment on other RC efforts for the same reasons but I’m absolutely no expert and often regret the comment for saying something wrong or stupid. I do understand that cryptics while subjective are based on precise rules – it’s one thing solving and quite another discerning where rules end and personal preferences begin – which I’ll gradually get a feel for. I like what the regulars say and take it all on board equally, but I do find it a bit cliquey here sometimes; one passes judgement and there’s a sense that others have been waiting for that cue to pile in with identical opinions. It doesn’t bother me as such but it doesn’t help the budding setter with their task.

               Prolixic’s reviews always throw up new considerations and I go over everything very carefully – can’t say I care much about the score really, it’s the comments that are important – this Rookie Corner is such a great idea. Prolixic’s PDF guide on here is superb, also the articles by Anax.

               Rampant clue-writing anarchy – lol! What a brilliant image 🤣 Thanks again Jose.

   3. Thanks Mustafa, that was very kind and really very useful feedback.
      14d, yes I should’ve left off the joke and had the exclamation mark right after modelling. “It” was the definition, as per the usual suspects.
      5d, after last time I was trying to avoid obscurities especially for overseas solvers. I thought adding ‘famously’ might direct the solver to a well-known venue rather than just a snooker hall or pool table. I tried to write the surface to sound like Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire!
      7d – you’re right. I couldn’t find an indicator for that though, do you know of any?

      1. Being strictly a layman in such matters, I don’t know off the top of my head how you would legitimately remove the last two letters. But to take into account Prolixic’s comment about I and IT, how about “Timeless Italian”? You’re on your own for the rest of it though, as I mulled over “Timeless Italian cut tooth at local Grand Prix circuit” which gets rid of just one letter, but makes no sense!

         1. Ooo with ‘Timeless Italian” you’ve now got me thinking of a nice Chianti 😋🍷

9. Welcome back, Agent B.

   There were numerous amusing clues and some innovative constructions, but I found myself on several occasions concerned about extraneous padding words (in there presumably just to benefit the surface readings) and some questionable abbreviations, as others have said. Try to remember that every word in a clue should be either part of the definition or part of the wordplay or a link word between the two. It shouldn’t be there just for decoration! To a certain extent, this puzzle reminded me of last week’s one where so many rules and conventions were broken that it made the solving process a slog rather than a pleasure, but I think today’s puzzle definitely produced far fewer “hmms” than this setter’s last one and it was more solver-friendly too.

   Many thanks, Agent B. You’re progressing in the right direction but, as always, please take heed of Prolixic’s wise words and come back with something even better next time.

10. I used the ‘reveal’ option rather less this time although I’m not sure how much of that may have been down to my ‘stabs in the dark’ just hitting the mark more often.
    Despite what a couple of other commenters have said, I firmly believe that ‘essentially’ in the world of crosswords refers to the exact middle – why not use a less controversial indicator? and I do feel that you’re still insisting on playing fast and loose with unaccepted abbreviations.
    Top clues for me were 10,24&31a plus 6&23d – although my personal choice would be to write 6d as one word.

    Wouldn’t have occurred to me to slot AgentB into 22d but I admit to being tempted elsewhere had the enumeration worked!

    Thanks, AgentB, and I hope Prolixic’s analysis points you further in the right direction.

    1. Yes, I totally agree, I only know 6d as a 10-letter word as well, but all three dictionaries had it as two words (once hyphenated) so I went with two words.

       The unaccepted abbreviation in 29a is my error (see earlier comment), I realised about an hour ago I had misread “GE=General Electric” in the BRB. But we all make mistakes! For “C=many”, I have paid careful heed indeed to Prolixic’s setting guide PDF on this site, having read it a few times now. Pages 1-4 clearly spell out that BD contributors aren’t expected to follow any ‘house rules’ or ‘Telegraph rules’, or adopt a particular ‘Ximenean vs Libertarian’ bent. I feel I have a personal style emerging having written a few crosswords now (on #12!) and basically I just want to entertain and make people smile or groan – ideally both! Can’t be dealing with anything too serious I’m afraid 😁🤷‍♀️

       1. Hi AgentB
          I know where you’re coming from, I have a similar philosophy regarding my aim for puzzles so to a degree I share your pain. However (and it’s a big however) cryptic crosswords are very precise things and one can’t play fast and loose with wordplay or abbreviations (not suggesting in any way that you were, just a general observation in regards to your comment) in the pursuit of amusement.
          My suggestion of sticking to Telegraph approved single-letter abbreviations (of course not compulsory) is that it’s both a good discipline and you won’t upset anyone!
          I thought your puzzle had some super ideas and great clues but it’s perhaps worth remembering (and I’ve found it to my cost in the past) it’s always preferable to compromise on humour rather than accuracy. Of course ideally one need not compromise on either but as we both know that’s not easy!

          1. That’s very well put, Stephen.

             Rules, whether in crossword compiling, sport, driving, any number of things really, are ignored at one’s peril. Those setters who have adopted the philosophy of “rules are made to be broken” or “rules don’t apply to me” will almost inevitably fail.

             1. Yes, I take the point. It gets very difficult navigating ‘acceptability’ when one person loves something one way and another the exact opposite. I mean, this C=many lark, I’ve seen it in more puzzles than I’ve had hot croissants. Do you mean I’ll “inevitably fail” if I use it? How daft. Many of the points raised aren’t that I’m “still insisting” on breaking rules, they’re because I’m a rookie and that’s what Rookie Corner is for?

                Obviously these factors are common in crossword circles and so here I am, navigating. My point was that I’ll take an amusing clue any day of the week over Ximenean perfection (as a solver anyway; Stephen is correct, why not both), and I doubt I’m alone in that. Some highly-lauded crosswords on here and in the DT I thought were awful but I accept they aren’t my style or I should learn how to solve them.

                Straying into setting has been great fun because I can see things from another perspective and build a clue for someone else’s enjoyment. But again I have researched the guide I’m supposed to read and it clearly says not to worry oneself too much with these things. The day I make a dull crossword is the day I chuck my pen out of the window at the nearest pigeon!

                1. AB. Evidence below:

                   From the DT Big Book of Cryptic Crosswords No 3 (page 164):

                   8d Reflected when many made cuts (6)

                   (Chewed)

11. Very entertaining puzzle, thanks to AgentB. Beaten only by 12A. Whatever the difficulty level, it was ***** for enjoyment for me

    1. Thanks Deebee! Glad it went down well. Don’t worry, 12a is now dead and buried 😅

12. Thanks AgentB. An enjoyable puzzle! I particularly enjoyed 4A, 10A and 11A

    1. Thanks Wombat! Looking forward to your next puzzle 😁👍

13. Thank you Prolixic for the review and advice, also the additional comments in relation to my questions. Especially for 7d which is very helpful. This will all get cooked and digested – the learning curve is steep but fascinating! I spotted some errors in the review, notably 12a which gives the incorrect solution.

    A really big thank you to everyone for your comments, much appreciated 👍🤗🍻

    This puzzle is one of two testing early ideas and people’s red lines. The next is a bit more of a “toughie”, and I’m not totally happy with it yet. Don’t worry, nothing like 12a is coming out to play again 🤣

    A quick note on feedback, I know most do already, but please keep it constructive on both sides. If you liked something (and have time to write!) do say why. If you didn’t, please give specific examples and how you personally might fix it or like to see it. I can’t speak for all rookies but this rookie doesn’t find much potential insight in comments such as “fewer hmms” or “come back with something even better”. This is quite literally the only place I read feedback on what I write, and the amount of experience in this forum is immense. I’d like to benefit from that experience in addition to Prolixic’s reviews. Thank you especially to Rabbit Dave for a really thorough breakdown, and those who gave a gauge of difficulty level comparative to backpagers, also very helpful.

    Thanks again, see you next time 😊👍

    1. What’s wrong with 12a? It’s a fine Toughie-type clue. Don’t beat yourself up. Prolixic passed it – despite the solution typo.

14. We really enjoyed completing this crossword today so thank you, AgentB. Favourites were 15a, 24a, 28a, 8d, 18d. We also learned a couple of new words and we look forward to your next offering. Thank you also to Prolixic.

15. Many thanks for the review, Prolixic. I was surprised that you were happy with 21a, I’m afraid it still doesn’t cut the mustard with me but you’re the boss!

    1. Jane. In 21a, “essentially” is being used (anomalously) as a lurker indicator – lurkers don’t have to be positioned exactly in the centre of the fodder. Convinced, even a bit?

       1. No – not even a bit, but thank you for trying!

       2. I’m not at all convinced by your argument. Lurkers don’t normally have to be positioned anywhere specific within the fodder (except at either end of it) but when ‘essentially’ is used it means ‘in the centre of the fodder’. Can you come up with a lurker type clue from a professional setter using ‘essentially’ where the lurker is not at the centre of the fodder?

          1. As you stated above, “essentially consecutive” can’t be used to clue EC but it could for ECU. But that isn’t what I would call a “lurker” indicator – it’s a central (exactly) letter/letters indicator (a reviewer wouldn’t describe that situation as a “lurker” but the “central letters (essentially) of consecutive)”. I assumed (or “took” as I said originally) that “essentially”, meaning at heart or at the heart of, is a lurker indicator therefore the lurker word does not need to be placed exactly centrally in the fodder. My evidence for this assumption is that AB confirmed it was a hidden word (or lurker) indicator and Prolixic also seems to have confirmed this – despite contradictions in the comments which, if they were valid, would normally be mentioned/upheld in the review.
             Essentially/at heart/at the heart of can mean exactly in the centre but it can also mean roughly/generally in the central area (like the lurker in this clue).

             Your final question seems to be deliberately mischievous – it appears to be conflating two slightly different conventions/devices?

             1. I don’t think we’re ever going to agree on this, Jose, so it’s probably best if we bring the discussion to a close.

       3. Perhaps the most compassionate compromise would be to embrace one’s ancestral Merthyr roots and edit the clue to the following 😉

          …essentially weak, I’m boyo with hands on hips! (6)

          Diolch yn fawr 😘

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