DT 30489

105 comments on “DT 30489”

1. Splendid.

   RayT is so consistent. I don’t think I’ve ever given him anything less than four stars for enjoyment.

   I’m relaxed about when a word needs an American indicator (high five, buddy etc). But, the one in 7d should have one as it’s never used this side of The Pond. Adding ‘New York’ after ‘of’ would work perfectly okay.

   My podium is 12a, 5d (I love these sort of clues) and the outrageously good lurker in 30a.

   Many thanks to ‘Mr Consistency’ and congratulations Shabbo on your T20 score (T for Telegraph)

   3*/4*

   1. Why, Tom? ENT is not an exclusively American term, it refers to Ear, Nose & Throat, a long-standing department of medical specialism in this country as well as “over there”. An indicator for Emergency Room would, however, make sense even if it’s now so familiar in the UK as to be utterly redundant. And putting the US indicator in the right place would really muck up the surface read.

      1. Hi MG

         I don’t think the surface would be that bad if it read ‘Record of New York hospital department emergency room’.

         I was referring to the ’emergency room’ part which I have never heard used in The UK but maybe I’m wrong. If that’s the case, then please accept my apologies. Emergency Department is the term that I’ve heard of as an alternative to A&E.

         1. AP uses ER a fair bit in his guzzles & never indicates either. Agree it’s American but at least it’s an excuse to picture Mr Clooney for the ladies.

            1. ….as long as he looks up because he is forever staring at the floor when he talks.

            2. And I’m one of those ladies – Mr Clooney is exactly who I think of whenever that term is used – a nice bit of eye candy never hurt anyone!

               Many thanks to setter and to Shabbo – I completed unaided, but needed your hints to see why for a couple.

               1. I’m one of those ladies, and I know of a few others who shall be nameless!

                  1. Count me in!

                     1. Oh for goodness sake! Swooning ladies all around me! Where’s the smelling salts? 😊

                        1. You’re just jealous!

         2. Adding “New York” to 7d would exceed RayT’s maximum words per clue.

            1. Good shout, Stanley….or is it Stanlex or Stanlez?

         3. Tom. I think some confusion has arisen because you’ve probably placed your indicator in the wrong position in the clue suggestion, causing people to assume it’s implying that ENT is also an Americanism. You could reduce it to NY with someting like: Record of hospital department and NY emergency room (5).

            1. A fair comment.

               I did ponder ‘Record of hospital department and emergency room in New York’.

               StanXYZ’s comment tickled me.

      2. MG. Forgive me, but I’m having difficuly understanding the middle sentence in your comment. You seem to be saying that an American indicator for ER would make sense in the clue even though ER is now so familiar in the UK to make such an indicator utterly redundant! Are you advocating an indicator and also saying it’s completely unnecessary?

   2. I have to agree with MG, Tom. I really wouldn’t class ENT as an Americanism and, in any case, I often find such indicators (NY, from Richmond, etc) more confusing than helpful. Perhaps that’s the point. ER, of course, should have one really but as Huntsman suggests, it’s so well-known that it can probably be omitted. Talking of Huntsman, I must thank you for reminding me of that utterly brilliant Slow Horses line, “like describing Norway to a dog”. I am so going to nick that in real life! Today was typical RayT: clever and beautifully tight. Yes, 5d’s device is well-used but it was a lovely example. This actually took me longer than Django’s toughie but I probably wasn’t concentrating. Many thanks to RayT, and to Shabbo, of course – huge congratulations on your 20th – and happy Christmas to all.

      1. Sorry, Tom, I’ve only just seen that it was “emergency room” you were referring to. Now that is an Americanism! But could we not just regard it as a fair synonym in this instance? The ENT department is, sort of, a place for emergency. Not strictly a room, of course, but then A&E isn’t either. Nor, I imagine, the ER.

         1. I hate to tell you this but when I was carted off to A&E in Addenbrookes a few weeks ago the signage was being changed to ER !!!

            1. Well, I never. I think you’ve settled the argument there and then, DG!

            2. I’ve been well aware of the American term ER for decades. Hasn’t the American TV series ER been aired on TV in the UK?

            3. Really? Blimey, that’s depressing.

               Saying that, wasn’t Addenbrookes once called Haddenbrookes until a Cockney became CEO of the foundation trust?

            4. Maybe they are changing it to ER as they misunderstood the CEO when he said ‘er indoors.

               Enough, TDS65! Enough,

   3. Tom. I’m not taking sides in this particular instance because you are expressing your opinion and that’s fair enough. But generally, I thinkt that “indicators” for Amricanisms, boys and girls, etc should be avoided as much as possible. They are nearly always unecessary and usually spoil the clue, remove some of the crypticness and make the clue needlessly easier to solve (especially for Thursday puzzle). Luckily, most setters and the DT editor agree.

      1. I’m with you, Jose, but I fear we’re in the minority. I think RN, for instance, for nurse, without a US indicator would elicit a howl of protest! I’m not sure indicators always make clues easier, though. Quite the reverse for me!

         1. ALP. Yes, indicators for obscure things like RN are ostensibly fine, but they should be avoided wherever possible. But having said that, if you have no idea what RN meant would an indicator help? You would still have to research and find out what RN was and would undoubtable discover it was an Americanism anyway – whether it was indicated in the clue or not! Also, we’re generally not in the minority. It’s only a tiny minority of solvers/commenters (usually rather extreme purists) who complain about a lack of indicators for anything and everything. Most setters, the vast majority of solvers and the DT editor are happy that they are generally avoided. As usual, if half a dozen people complain regularly about a minor issue they monopolise attention and their gripes are magnified. The thousands of others who have no issue at all and naturally remain silent are disregarded.

            1. I really hope you’re right, Jose. Because I so agree. Indicators can be annoyingly intrusive and utterly ruin a surface. Personally, I prefer a broken “rule” to an ugly surface. I’m delighted you think we’re not in the minority. That would make a welcome change for me! And you are, of course, right re the likes of RN. It’s essentially a matter of GK. You either know it or you don’t. And it seems, to me, largely irrelevant where it comes from. GK doesn’t have to be indicated, does it? I think sometimes it’s unavoidable. C for a Russian “with”, for example, would have to be marked. There’s no way around it. But surely we all know what an emergency room is? Back, boringly, to my personal offside rule, DBEs, does salmon for fish really need a “say” do you think? I suppose technically it does but I don’t really see why.

               1. Agreed, generally. You’ll have to enlighten me about the C = Russian with?

                  Recently, someone complained that girl = Ivy was too vague. I won’t reveal who …

                  1. I can’t think who! I don’t love girl for Ivy but it’s perfectly justifiable. The problem I have with fish/salmon is that while salmon can really just be fish or pink, fish could be about a zillion things, noun or verb. And, actually, DBEing salmon just makes it more confusing. It could, in fact, be Colin!

      2. *Crossword editor!

      3. It is a tricky one.

         As a rule, I’m with you all the way (I don’t know if you saw my post with my thoughts on this a few weeks ago).

         But, I feel an indicator is required when the word isn’t used in The UK, e.g diaper, sidewalk, zucchini.

         I take back all of what I’ve said if the abbreviation for emergency room is in common parlance over here.

         Is it?

         1. I think we’re largely with you, Tom. Certainly regarding diaper. But then that is a word that should be used, ever! But it’s certainly a quandary. As with DefsByExamples, I never quite know when non-UK words have to be indicated, and when not. And no, you would never call A&E the emergency room over here. But in this instance, for ENT, I think it’s just about OK. But I may well be wrong. I often am.

            1. Thanks, ALP.

               I’ve got no problem with ENT.

               1. You know, it’s so long since I solved it, I’d actually forgotten how the clue was worded! I realise you didn’t have a problem with ENT. And ER did, of course, refer to emergency room. I was getting muddle up but hey, it’s Christmas! It’s a matter of personal preference, basically. For me, I’d rather see this than queen/monarch etc. That has, sadly, had its day, I think.

         2. Tom. Of course, the words diaper, sidewalk and zucchini might not be “used” that much in the UK vocabularly but surely the vast majority of adults (especially cryptic crossword fans) here “know” those word very well.

            1. I hear you, Jose. It is a close call.

               But, with the aforementioned examples, I’m in the indicator camp….just.

   4. I’m late to this, but I reckon there is an Americanism indicator in the clue!

      The clue contains “emergency room”, to indicate ‘ER’. Both ‘emergency room’ and its abbreviation are Americanisms, so that’s an American term in the clue being used to indicate an American abbreviation in the answer.

      If the clue had just used “doctors” or “casualty” or pretty much anything else to indicate ‘ER’, that would have been an unindicated Americanism, but this was clear, surely?

      (Also, when an abbreviation is just the initial letters of the words in the clue, you don’t actually need to know what the term means anyway.)

      1. Interesting, Smylers.

         As far as I can see, the term ’emergency room’ is a common noun that can be found in The UK. ER is an abbreviation for the American term Emergency Room which has capitalised initials. So, it could be argued that ’emergency room’ in the clue needs the initials capitalised ‘Emergency Room’.

         I do like your take though and you could well be right in this case.

         Diaper etc need an indicator in my eyes. But, it’s all opinion, subjective, personal preference etc.

      2. S. Hmmm … are you being amusingly mischievous? The clue contains the American term “emergency room” and some (very few) people will say that it needs an indicator. They might say that using a unindicated Americanism in the clue to trigger ER (another unindicated Americanism) in the answer is a double violation. Two wrongs don’t make a right!

         Personally, I hate indicators generally and the clue is fine as it.

         1. Well, I think it has to have an even number of additional indicators — you either need to point out that both ‘emergency room’ and the required letters are American, or neither of them and let the solver work out that an American term leads to American letters.

            Marking one of them but not t’other would be worse!

            1. I’m only joshing, S. I agree that neither of them need indicating and then the solver can enjoy doing some thinking/research.

         2. All this chat certainly beats Christmas shopping, J!

   5. This is where having lived in the UK until I was 34 helps…. Except for words that have come into use over there since we left, for example the dreadful pant.

   6. Crikey who’d ’ave thunk that 2nd paragraph would generate such traffic.

2. Very enjoyable, despite the large number of anagrams. Among the other usual “tells”, RayT’s trademark lack of multi-word answers contrasts with yesterday’s superfluity, which became quite monotonous. Podium places to 10a, the lurker in 30a, and 8d.

   1.5* / 4*

   Many thanks to RayT and to Shabbo – congratulations on your stepping stone to blogging greatness!

3. Have they been keeping all these excellent puzzles, including this “sweetheart”, for the week before Christmas?

   Favourites today are 17a and 19a. Only found a couple of other answers were lurkers when I tried to parse them.

   Gales today in NE Scoland with many routes blocked by fallen trees.

   Thanks to Shabbo and the setter.

   1. Oh dear, I hope it clears up for Christmas. U

      1. Thanks. I think we should be okay near the coast but snow is forecast for where I grew up (Dufftown) on Chrismas Day.

4. Very enjoyable. I thought our setter in very generous mood with this but all the usual succinct fun.
   I particularly enjoyed 10&12 plus the &litish 4d and 14d but the winner has to be the terrific lurker at 30a. Good stuff
   Many thanks Ray T and Shabbo and season’s greetings to both.

   1. Oh I do agree about the lurker at 30a – brilliant.

5. Tough but fair is my take on Ray T’s offering today. I admit to needing the hints to get me across the line. I completely missed the lurker at 30a – how well hidden was that? I thought 5d was clever but have a feeling it has been used before with other words. My COTD is the reported hilarity at 12a.

   Thank you, Ray T for the fun. I didn’t quite finish unaided but it was a fun challenge. Thank you, Shabbo for the hints. BTW, the third word in the Quickie pun is only three letters long. Merry Christmas to you and yours. 🎅🏻🍺🥂

   1. Thanks, Steve. Now changed.

   2. I missed the lurker in 30a, so thanks Steve, another answer now filled in 😊.

6. Not too tough but as enjoyable and concise as always from Mr T, with the superb lurker at 30a my favourite this morning.

   Thanks to Ray and Shabbo.

7. Challenging. 80% straight forward but then it got tricky. A lot of misleading clues. 25d my favorite.

8. Took me a while to see 27a and 30a having romped through up to that point. 4d gets my vote, very clever.

   Thanks to Ray T and Shabbo.

9. Lovely! I really enjoyed this. My favourite was 17a with the last in being 27a due to spelling problems in the SW. Thanks to the setter and for the hints.

10. 28a just pips the excellent lurker at 30a as my pick of the bunch in this typically entertaining guzzle from the wonderfully consistent Mr T.
    Thanks to Ray T & to Shabbo -20 & counting: doesn’t time fly.

11. To quote TDS65 RayT is never less than consistent so I managed just above half which is very consistent too. Otherwise no comment.

12. Usual start in the NW corner, liked 1a, then moved to the NE, spot on except 7d the end of which myself and others did not like!
    Favourites were13a and 5d -when the penny dropped, top draw 30a lurker.
    Going for a ***/****
    Thanks all.
    .

13. Mr T is as entertaining as ever – thanks to him and Shabbo.
    My awards went to 12a, 30a, 5d and 8d.

14. 2*/4.5*. Apart from the Americanism (ER) and the Latin word (hic), this was excellent …

    … or, should I say, hic was excellent (QED).

    My podium selection today is 12a, 30a & 5d.

    Many thanks to RayT and to Shabbo.

15. Completed with a little peek at the hints to get me the last 2, which did the trick, just knowing the underlined word helped focus my mind. As ever a stunning display of short but tricksy clues. The lurker at 30a was my favourite but so many others were brilliantly clever.

    Many thanks to RayT for providing me with consistently brilliant Thursday challenges and to Shabbo for providing the hints which I so often need, Merry Christmas to you.

    1. I agree with you that a peek at the underlined words is so useful.

16. A jolly crossword.
    Out to (late) luncheon again today, so once more in tearing haste.
    Thanks to RayTee and Shabba-dabba-doo.

    I may not be around much over the coming days so Happy Everything To Everybody.

    1. What a rackety life you do lead. Always gadding about. Happy Christmas to you and H.

    2. Happy Christmas Terence, I imagine yours will be very busy!

    3. Merry Christmas, Terence! 🎄🎅🏻☃️🍾

17. The invasion force has departed and peace reigns amidst the chaos left behind! A Mr T masterpiece was just what the doctor ordered for an aid to recovery.
    The excellent lurker at 30a gets COTD and is joined on the podium by 12&28a plus 3d just because it makes me smile.

    Devotions as always to Mr T and many thanks to Shabbo for his 20th review – very best of festive wishes to both of you.

18. Well this Thursday being a RayT offering was up to his usual standard and at the more difficult end of his spectrum this week. Struggled to crack into it after solving 1a off the bat. I found the NE was last to finish.

    3*/3.5* for me

    Favourites included 6a, 17a, 30a, 4d, 5d & 18d — with winner 5d
    One new word for me in 3d, but was easy to figure it out.
    6a gave me some 12a, as did 22a, 30a & 4d

    Thanks to RayT & Shabbo for hints/blog

19. Sprog is a word my grandfather often used, he called my brother a young sprog. I thoroughly enjoyed this and thought 20d was a great example of a simple, cryptic clue. I liked the anagrams and, of course, 5d. Regarding last night’s toughie when my name was bandied about, I realise I have led a very sheltered life. I have never heard of a mosh pit. And at a guess I would say I never wish to see or enter one. I watch a certain amount of TV, see films, read lots of books and the DT. Talk to people of all ages. Mosh pits have never cropped up. Am I missing something? Is my education lacking? Anyway, many thanks to Mr T and to Shabbo for today’s entertainment.

    1. Mosh pits are a feature of certain concerts with music of a particularly “heavy” nature
       I do recall a rather loud concert in the Fforde Greene in Leeds that may have qualified as moshing but in my advancing years although I have a ticket in the front standing to see Bruce Springsteen at the Stadium of Light next May, I am unlikely to be headbanging but may allow a little air guitar

       1. You know that you’re past it when you have to ring & request seating when it’s a standing only gig. Long gone are the days when I could comfortably stand in the same spot for 2hrs + so I give them some sob story.

    2. Grandson is a drummer in an aspiring heavy metal band, “Chained Saint” so I guess mosh pit is something I should be familiar with soon.

20. Came to ths late for me. Trouble free until the north east corner. Very slow to get 17a so it better be my favourite! And even slower 11a and I have good reason to have solved this quicker!
    Good fun. Thanks to compiler and hintists though not needed today.

21. I am pretty sure I gave seen 9d before in a slightly different form but still think it is a great misdirect. For me 5d was tops. Seen the concept before but this was a supremely economical RayT.

    For some reason got bogged down on 27a pushing me into ** time but a definite **** for me.

    I wish every day was a Thursday. Thanks Shabbo and congrats on your 20th. I’m afraid I don’t often look at the hints but recall how grateful I was for them when learning our craft.

    Thank you our illustrious setter.

    1. Apologies for the gave which should have been have

22. Is it just me that the
    “BD Rating – Read more of this post”
    Link does not work for?

    Good comments and parsing though!

    1. Good parsing though!

       1. Sometime the link from the email is missing, but if you bookmark bigdave44.com you should get our homepage

          1. Yes got that thanks. It’s probably the pedant in me but I don’t like things that don’t work!

             1. yep it’s definitely the pedant in you

23. Nice way to start the day, Thanks to RayT and Shabbo
    Some nice lurkers got the ball rolling and trotted along nicely until the final few slowed me down a bit
    I am not picking up the pace on the toughie either but slow and steady wins the race

24. Now then, where was I? After all that confusing and amusing commentary about ER (was it worth it?) I can now comment on the puzzle principally. It seems a lifetime ago since I finished it.

    Another excellent Ray T cryptic (aren’t they always) with good/concise clues providing a decent challenge and much enjoyment. Of a top-notch group, I particularly liked 30a and 5d. 3*/4*.

    1. No, it really wasn’t worth it!

       1. Ditto. Some of the comments on this site get more weird all the time. Newcomers and no Bertie?

25. This was a lot trickier than the ** Shabbo gave it, it is Thursday of course, but very enjoyable and lots to like. I needed a little help from word search so my solve was not unaided. I loved 17a, now it’s been explained to me. I couldn’t help thinking of he who should be nameless at 13a, that’s his favourite phrase. So much good stuff, 12a was a smiler, but 30a beats the lot.
    Thank you RayT for the fun, and Shabbo for unravelling so much. At last the sun is out, I’m so happy.

26. That’s the first Thursday cryptic I have enjoyed in a long while. No sure why, but I found Ray T very benevolent today. I do strive to solve without the hints, at least at first, buts it’s great to know they are there when I need them. Thanks to Steve who pointed out a lurker in 30a. Thanks to Ray T and Shabbo.

    Thanks also to Daisy and Steve for kind words for younger daughter. She will be amazed people so far away have thought about her…😊.

27. Fantastic … the needy person is the best clue and quite brilliant! Thank you RayT and Shabbo

28. Top half flew in, bottom half a little slower but still fairly straightforward and classic Rayt. Favourite was the brilliant all in 11a. Thanks to Rayt and Shabbo.

29. No surprise that a RayT was a dnf for me.

    I only got 17a while scrolling down and seeing the picture of a 17a at work. I don’t recall seeing allegedly used in this way before.

    27a was also beyond me. A new meaning of a rarely used (and to me awful) word.

    Enjoyed the rest of the solve. Was nice to see military slang in 3d.

    Thanks to all.

30. Please can we have less silly chat , this is about a crossword. Who set it and how you solve it, not the rest of rubbish chat. Today passable but yesterday IMPOSSIBLE. i look forwar to tomorrow Jacquie B

    1. That’s the way Big Dave’s blog is, Jacquie. We all do mention the puzzle but then get delightfully sidetracked. Personally, I love what you call “silly chat”.

       1. Newcomer?

    2. As Steve says that’s the charm of this site. 225 is the home for puzzle only stuff.

    3. I guess I am one of the silly chatterers Jacqui, but were you using this site at the height of Covid? If you were, you would appreciate how close this group became and how good it was to share our daily life with folks the other side of the globe.

       1. That is so very true, DG. Big Dave was a life saver during lockdown.

31. I enjoyed this but, in company with Merusa, my solve was certainly not unaided so I will refrain from detailed comment. Thank you however to RayT and Shabbo. I liked the Quickie pun but, if it’s not out of order to ask, could someone please tell me solution to Quickie 1d – think I have messed up crossers. Too much Christmas on my mind!

    1. Sparsity, Angelov.
       I must admit I found today’s Quickie quite a challenge.

       1. TVM SC and Jeemz I had that but then made a real mess up all round and put my original solution to 22a (Panglosses!) into 10a so sparsity didn’t work. I think I will get my coat!

    2. Try sparsity

32. Good evening

    Very late to post tonight; I left and returned to today’s crozzie several times throughout this afty/evening, but I had to admit defeat, hoy the sponge in, and declare a DNF. Defeat for the second Thursday in a row at the hands of the Mighty Mr T!

    Ee wey, there’s always the next time! My thanks to Ray T for the challenge (and for the absolute stonker of a clue that was 30a) and to Shabbo for shedding light on the four missing answers.

33. Brilliant.

34. Morning all. Again, my apologies for my tardiness, but thanks to Shabbo and to all who commented. My best wishes to everybody.

    RayT

35. I enjoyed this one today, which was satisfying as normally I find Thursdays hard and sit gazing at it for ages. Maybe I am just thick.I thought 6a was disc with is in the middle ( from the clue and a doubtful CD ( Record) so couldn’t do 7d ENT was in my mind so I should have realised 6a was wrong. Liked 18a and 28a

36. 3*/4* ….
    liked 30A “Flashy person ice-skating circles very fast (10)”

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