Rookie Corner – 096

43 comments on “Rookie Corner – 096”

1. These instructions appear on the pdf, but not the interactive one:
   All 7 ‘notes’ of the Sol-Fa scale (do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti), and all 7 musical ‘keys’
   (A, B, C, D, E, F, G) are represented in the wordplay, but each only appears in
   one clue. There are of course various other ‘notes’ and ‘keys’ that make an
   appearance.

2. That took a lot of really hard work and in the end I revealed a letter to help with 1d. Even with this it still took some time to unpick the wordplay. Another couple of points where I haven’t sorted everything, 10a looks to have an abbreviation that is not in BRB if I have read it correctly and I can’t justify all of 22d. An amazing accomplishment to have included so many note/key references. It is certainly a very clever puzzle.
   Thanks Sprocker.

   1. Hi,

      As you solved this in the interactive version, and as Snape has pointed out the ‘instructions’ only appear in the PDF version, did you tackle this without them? If so, that wouldn’t have helped with the difficulty!

      For 10a the abbreviation is in Collins but not in Chambers. That does lead me into a question though – there is one clue in there which has two abbreviations, one of which is only in Chambers and one of which is only in Collins (at least in the online versions at any rate) – is it fair game to mix and match like that within a single clue?

      Cheers,

      Sprocker

      1. Hi Sprocker, I printed the PDF as we always do. It never feels quite right to us to use the interactive version, must be an age thing. So I did have the full instructions when solving. I just went back to the site to get help with the last word.
         We certainly prefer it when we know that there is one recognised authority on what is acceptable and have got used to that being Chambers as it is the one The Telegraph uses. I have no idea on the rules or conventions with this.

         1. I’d like to say that omitting the instructions was deliberate, but it wasn’t!

            As far as abbreviations are concerned, I use Chambers and Chambers XWD: A Dictionary of Crossword Abbreviations and the one in question is in the latter.

3. Thanks Sprocker – that was very good.

   I found that a lot harder to complete than I thought I would at first sight. Looking back I don’t know why. Most of the clues taken in isolation I would normally have a reasonable chance of solving cold after a bit of a stare. Somehow the knowledge of the theme put me off my usual game.

   I wondered whether it was really necessary to announce it all in a preamble – although later, when stuck about 3/4 the way through – I ticked off all the various notes that I had used and knowing which the few the remaining ones were helped me to get moving again. At least maybe omitting the second sentence would have made the “other” keys more of a surprise.

   Clues I ticked were: 10a, 15a, 5d, 18d.

   No quibbles on the clues themselves – except maybe (more of an observation than a quibble) – I wondered about the use of “key” in 7d and 16d. Barnard used the term “logical key” to describe what is these days commonly called a “definition” – certainly not the answer or solution itself – the thing that gives us (ie keys) the answer. But that’s a minor quibble – I twigged what you wanted straight away in those cases. Maybe I’m being too bogged down in the thought I just described

   Of course what we call “definitions” in crosswords are mostly not definitions at all – key is a much more accurate word – likewise “synonyms”.

   Just an observation – not a criticism. I’ve been doing quite a few old Araucaria puzzles lately – from the 3-volume compilation books – these are One Across puzzles – not Guardian ones. I noticed that quite often when he did a themed puzzle (ie mostly of the type where themed clues don’t have a definition) he limited the special clues to eg all the across ones and had all the down clues as conventional ones – with maybe sometimes a few intentionally easy ones – possibly to help weaker solvers get in and enjoy the fun.

   Anyway – many thanks – your aim was obviously to squeeze all that in and cover what the preamble set and you did that extremely well.

   1. Hiya,

      I did wonder about whether or not to include the ‘instructions’, but my intention was that they would help if people got stuck in the latter stages, and it appears that they did do that for you.

      Interesting points about the key’s in 7d and 16d – I’m going to claim them as fair game, and besides, within the constraints of the theme I think a little leeway would be justified if someone were to disagree.

      In hindsight I would likely have been better off limiting the theme somewhat as it did prove to be very constraining, and that did mean I didn’t end up with as much ‘sparkle’ as I might have liked.

      Cheers,

      Sprocker

4. A proper toughie. I can’t make my mind up whether the instructions helped or hindered, as having both ‘note’ and ‘key’ in the clues does tell you what you are looking for. The NW corner held me up the longest.

   I would go for a lie down now but sadly they want me to start work.

   Thanks Sprocker and, in advance, to Prolixic too.

   1. I didn’t actually set out to make this one a toughie, but I did get somewhat constrained by the theme which necessitated some bits of fairly complicated wordplay.

      Cheers,

      Sprocker

5. Thanks Sprocker – it was no mean achievement to fit in all the keys and notes and still come up with meaningful surfaces. My favourite was 13a.

   1. Thanks – 13a was significantly improved by Silvanus during the test solving, so he deserves the credit on that one.

6. Hi Sprocker,

   I was seriously held up with 1d at the end because of an accounting problem: I desperately wanted to get a “B” in there – until I remembered I’d already used it!

   My first impression on seeing the instructions were “what a pity, maybe they give too much away” since I kinda like ghost themes, but it became obvious that you do need to tell the solver that each key and note appear in only one clue, and actually the upfront clarification between key and note is extremely helpful!

   The additional use of key and note throughout, used to contribute to wordplay in at least 6 different clue types, as well as at least 6 different definitions, is most impressive. Well done! I have no problems with the various synonyms, when i wasn’t sure, i did find them in my chambers thesaurus app. I noticed the abbreviation that was not in chambers but found it in collins, anyway it was obvious what it needed to be.

   The two bits I wasn’t sure about were “sad note” rather than just sad in 20a, and the need for “elements” in 24a, but maybe the inclusion just helps the synonym in each case.

   I’m going to do something else now because i’ve got notes and keys swimming around everywhere i look.

   Many thanks and congratulations! lots of fun

   I’m going to be away skiing next week so I’ll miss the rookie puzzle created at the birthday bash – i’m hoping Tilsit can manage some serious editing to all the alcohol-fuelled contributions that came his way, I’m not surprised it needs another week! Many thanks Tilsit for all that effort in advance.

   1. after beer number eleven indeed…(21d)

   2. Thanks! – Have fun skiing, hope you get good snow.

      Cheers,

      Sprocker

7. Morning! For some reason, I’m not seeing the Rookie (or the hints for yesterday’s cryptic) on screen in the usual way when I access the blog. Last thing visible is from Saturday. I went through the FB page to download it just now so I’ll be back later.

   1. Good afternoon! Expat Chris.

      I’ve been experiencing problems with this site for ages.

      As Kath would say ..”I’m glad I’m not the only one.”

8. Well I loved this Sprocker. It sort of sent my brain into a stew of notes and keys of various kind, out of which all the answers eventually emerged. Held up longest by thinking the second word in 20a was going to be ‘tone’, which it wasn’t, of course.
   The instructions DEFINITELY helped me – otherwise I think I might have submerged in a sea of possibilities..
   Ticks by 11a, 12a, 15a, 3d, 5d, 6d, 7d, 16d, 18d, 21d, 22d. Double ticks by 10a, 13a and my favourite, 1d.
   Many thanks – a great idea and quite an achievement to pull it off!

   1. Hi Maize,

      Thanks for the lovely comments – glad you enjoyed it!

      Cheers,

      Sprocker

9. The instructions did help enormously especially the “only appear once” (except in 15…17 of course) and I happily ticked them off as I went along.
   Really loved all the meanings of key and note sprinkled in the clues.
   Very clever crossword and perfect clues.
   Maybe “overrule” in 4d is a bit osé and the near-indirect anagram in 3d might cause some niggling.
   Loved the construction of “note in which I’m describing live” in 10a and favourite is 18d.
   Thanks to Sprocker for an excellent achievement.

   1. Oh no! Sorry Sprocker. The first one in 15a is on and not a note. Silly me.

   2. Thanks – overrule won’t have been to everyone’s taste, but I personally quite like that kind of construction so I’m going to keep using it.

10. For too tough for me, I’m afraid. After my normal 4* time I had managed just three answers and I’ve thrown in the towel. Thanks anyway, Sprocker, and I’m glad to see that others have enjoyed your efforts.

    1. I had the same experience with Encota’s latest effort a few weeks ago. As I’ve said above, I didn’t set out to make this one difficult, but working to the theme seems to have made it so.

       1. I’ll aim to take that as a compliment ;-)

          Loved it – see my comments below!

          By the way, I’ve now submitted what I hope to be a significantly easier one to BD, so hopefully that’ll appear in the coming month or two.

          -Encota-

11. Got into a bit of a two-and-eight with the instructions because I couldn’t decide whether the notes and keys were represented as spelt or as sounded. Anyway, I battled on without worrying about it but have had to ‘phone a friend’ re: 22d.

    Sorry, Sprocker, I’ve obviously gone about this one in entirely the wrong way! :phew:

    1. Hi Jane,

       They are all spelt out as per the instructions – I guess the best advice would be to cross them off as you use them, and Dutch’s comment above might give a few more hints to what else to look for.

       1. Hi Sprocker,
          I did complete it all bar 22d, despite ignoring the instructions. I’ll now go back over it to make sure I can ‘tick off’ all the relevant notes and keys. By the way – ‘phone a friend’ came up trumps on 22d!

          1. Excellent – glad to hear it!

             Thanks!

12. Hi all,

    Sorry I couldn’t make it to the birthday bash – sounds like it was lots of fun though.

    Thanks for the comments – for this one I need to give a super special big shout out to Beet, Silvanus and Snape all of whom helped enormously with test solving the initial version, and then providing lots of excellent input to get it to it’s final state. :good:

    Cheers,

    Sprocker

    1. An absolute pleasure to help, Sprocker.

       For anyone who hasn’t yet attempted the puzzle (or even those who have started but have considered it too tough to complete) I would urge you to persevere as it’s well worth it and is honestly not as tricky as you might think, especially if you follow Sprocker’s advice and tick off the respective notes and keys as you solve them.

    2. Yes, an absolute pleasure, although test solving was not really what I did as my solving wasn’t up to it, so I read the answers and tried to help from there. Sorry we allowed 3d, we slipped up. It is an astonishing construction to get key or note into every single clue with one of each, especially seeing as a few were completely rewritten after comments, and to keep the clues readable and fun.

       Thanks for the review Prolixic, and hopefully everyone is back to full fitness very soon.

13. Hi Prolixic,

    Sorry to hear about your suffering. Thanks for the review – I did wonder about 3d – I justified it on the basis of the preamble, but I’m not too surprised you thought it was the wrong side of acceptable.

    Thanks,

    Sprocker :bye:

14. Oh dear, things chez Prolixic sound grim. Hope everyone recovers soon.

    Congratulations to Sprocker on a real achievement of a puzzle – it didn’t have the preamble when I solved and I remember the penny dropping when I realised he’d manage to use every ABC and do re mi note, but each one only once. He does like to set himself a challenge our Sprocker!

15. Thanks Sprocker – I agree with others that this was Tough! Loved it!!

    When I saw the Preamble I thought “that’s giving too much away, isn’t it?” but I definitely needed it; it is the first time I have ever printed a copy off as I had to mark them off as I went along to avoid Key overload. Eventually finished in the SE corner with 27a LOI.
    Loved 13a (and feeling dopey that I did use Google Maps to check out the Southern tip of Key Largo!). 1d a very clever spot, too. 4d’s ‘lift and separate’ fine in less Ximenean puzzles – fine with me here. Accurate definitions throughout, I felt – well done given the constraints you set yourself! Aside: agree with others about the L abbreviation – and not really one I know or use, but feels ok (and I will consider it from now on).
    Wasn’t sure whether several ‘types’ of key where used should have had Definition By Example indicators – worked fine for me but others might be pickier?

    Anyway, in summary, very hard but very enjoyable! I thought that ‘hot towel over head’ I’ve had on since just finishing Saturday’s Listener was going to come off this morning, but I think I’ll need to keep it on for a while longer till I’ve recovered from yours!

    cheers and thanks again

    -Encota-

16. And thanks Prolixic for your insight as ever. Your Prologue and ‘oversharing’ in 14d’s explanation reminded me of an offhand comment once made by an Australian band about a cheap wine (to be said in a strong Australian accent): “Really opens up the sluices at both ends.”

    Hope all gets better soon for you and yours…

    -Encota-

    1. HI Encota,

       Glad you enjoyed it, and I’m very much looking forward to your next one.

       Cheers,

       Sprocker

17. Many thanks, Prolixic – definitely service ‘above and beyond’ today. Hope the bug leaves you soon – by the sounds of it you’re shifting it through fairly rapidly!

    This was certainly tough, but only 22d had me calling for assistance at the end of the day – new word for me.
    Having read the review, I’m still glad I chose to more or less ignore the instructions, although knowing about the ‘keys’ did help me to worry less about the random letters that I needed to add to some of the wordplay.

    Wrong method, right result – sounds a little like the maths teacher’s comments on my daughters’ homework when I’d tried to help them out using ‘old school’ techniques!

18. Many thanks Prolixic for the great review – well done picking up on the indirect anagram; I read straight past it.

    Hope everyone gets better soon

19. Re 3d

    Where does the idea come from that splitting surface words (either at all or without indicating that it’s to be done) is either non-ximenean or indeed a solecism in any other setting idiom?

    Barnard was fine with it.

    Ximenes (as far back as 1947) gave VHC to the following clue:

    Increases of clothing? Perhaps in 100 years! (6) for CREASY

    i.e. in creases; anag. incl. C; ref. clothes rationing

    and there the word-split (or lift-and-separate as many are now calling them) is in the *definition*.

    Re 4d

    Feeding derived single letters into anagram fodder may strictly count as indirectness but it’s not normally regarded as a solecism even in ximeneanism. I won’t bore you with examples trawled from the ximenes archive – they’re too numerous – in fact the clue above provides one already. 0nly when two or more letters are involved does the issue arise.

    1. A really interesting read – thanks Jolly Swagman. It also encouraged me to look up Douglas Barnard, of whom I knew very little.
       I sometimes wonder if current-Times-house-rules and Ximenean are used (clearly incorrectly) interchangeably? Though I could be wrong!
       Thank you,
       -Encota-

       1. Thanks E

          You’ve probably already discovered this but just in case – Douglas Barnard (who adopted the style D St P Barnard in publications) was, in the words of former DT puzzle editor Val Gilbert “one of the greatest crossword compilers to grace the pages of the Telegraph” – I would say (particularly allowing for the period in which he was setting) *the* greatest. His 1963 book Anatomy of the Crossword is *the* seminal book on clue-writing and it has never been surpassed – certainly not by Ximenes – although X deserves credit for his chapter on &lit (all-in-one) clues in his own otherwise unindexed book.

          The Barnard book is written in a fairly antiquated style which some people may find difficult at first sight – it is also completely rigorous – so, just like a mathematician, he has to define terms for the abstract concepts under discussion – terms which sadly have not caught on as the ximeneans have seen to it that their own looser ones are the ones which have been adopted.

          If nothing else his book is worth reading for its example clues, all of which would pass muster in most leading UK dailies today. It is becoming increasingly difficult to get hold of. I was lucky to get an ex-library copy for quite a keen price before the prices went up. Val Gilbert’s book “A Display of Lights” describes the man himself and also provides some samples of his puzzles.

          He deserves more recognition. He was clearly a long way ahead of his time. The ximeneans have done their best to airbrush him out of history. Obviously the problem for them is that it gives the lie to the notion that the only options are ximeneanism and libertarianism (= “anything goes” according to Azed). To describe Barnard’s disciplined and well thought out notions as libertarian simply because they differ (on only a few issues) from ximeneanism would be absurd.

          I read elsewhere that The Times is moving away from its former starchiness on one or two issues. “Completely” for in T…OTO I liked (so did the blogger and the commenters) the other day.

          1. ‘Anatomy of the Crossword’ is now on my shopping list!

20. Thanks again to Sprocker and to Prolixic for the review.
    Glad to see that the abbreviation for Live didn’t cause any problems. I was beginning to think I was the only one who had ever fitted an electrical plug with the three poles Live Neutral and Earth.

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