DT 29811 – Big Dave's Crossword Blog
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DT 29811

Daily Telegraph Cryptic No 29811

Hints and tips by 2Kiwis

BD Rating – Difficulty *** Enjoyment ****

Kia ora from Aotearoa.
We were slow getting started with this one and then a few tricky bits along the way so three stars for difficulty. Lots of fun of course too.

Please leave a comment telling us how you got on.

Across

1a     Talk about right before consumer finds jumper (11)
GRASSHOPPER : A three letter informal word for talk contains R(ight). This is followed by a consumer or buyer.

9a     Hit back at volunteers employed by online seller making a comeback (9)
RETALIATE : A word for an online seller is reversed and contains the two letters that were formerly used for volunteer soldiers.

10a     Pointed remarks from lawyers with briefs lacking content (5)
BARBS : A collective noun for barristers and then the first and last letters (lacking content) of briefs.

11a     Thrill of quote by former partner (6)
EXCITE : The usual abbreviation for a former partner and then a synonym for quote.

12a     Cue from soldiers and bodyguard (8)
REMINDER : Engineering soldiers, then a bodyguard who brought Arthur Daley to mind for us.

13a     Prone to drink plonk, taking cap off (6)
SUPINE : A three letter word meaning to drink and then the beverage sometimes called plonk without its first letter (cap off).

15a     Vessel preferably parked outside church (8)
SCHOONER : A word meaning preferably or rather contains Ch(urch).

18a     Light transport such as tank, for example (8)
LANDSHIP : Light, or come down to earth, and then transport or despatch.

19a     Blunt point (6)
DIRECT : A double definition.

21a     Sort of business college once attached to Doctor No (8)
MONOPOLY : Start with a medical officer (doctor), then ‘No’ from the clue, and finally a now obsolete name for a tertiary training establishment.

23a     Basket supplying unboxed fizz! (6)
HAMPER : A familiar term for expensive fizzy wine loses its first and last letters.

26a     Small and delicate female found in river flowing west (5)
ELFIN : The reversal of a long African river contains F(emale).

27a     Gold in toilet facility for the president of the yacht club! (9)
COMMODORE : A toilet facility that might contain a gazunder surrounds the heraldic word for gold.

28a     Direct view of Spooner’s indication of dawn? (4,2,5)
LINE OF SIGHT : It’s hard to write a hint for Spoonerisms. Direct view is the definition.

Down

1d     Studies underpinning rise of tabloid plots (7)
GARDENS : The reversal of a slang term for a tabloid newspaper and then rooms that are called studies.

2d     Language of Zulu arrested by an investigating officer (5)
AZTEC : A slang word for a plain-clothes investigating officer contains the letter represented phonetically by Zulu.

3d     Shared objectives may produce shock problem (5,4)
SPLIT ENDS : Shared or divided and then objectives or goals. The shock has nothing to do with a fright or electricity.

4d     State officers originally provide crew (4)
OMAN : The first letter of officers, then provide crew, or staff.

5d     Impressive carriage in attendance (8)
PRESENCE : A double definition. Impressive carriage could be charisma.

6d     Arab bitterness about spiritual leader (5)
RABBI : A lurker, hiding in the clue.

7d     Financial institution ruins new queen (7)
INSURER : An anagram (new) of RUINS and Her Majesty’s regnal cypher.

8d     Caution from coppers covering game day (8)
PRUDENCE : Coppers or small change contains NZ’s national game and D(ay.)

14d     This might cut swan with broken neck if not caught (8)
PENKNIFE : A female swan is followed by an anagram (broken) of NE(c)K IF once C(aught) has been removed.

16d     A proviso arranged about university as a layer perhaps (9)
OVIPAROUS : An anagram (arranged) of A PROVISO which includes U(niversity).

17d     William is able to cook in this vessel (5-3)
BILLY-CAN : A familiar form of William, then a word meaning ‘is able to’.

18d     Doorstep millions holding stickers up (7)
LIMPETS : A reverse lurker, hiding in the clue.

20d     Flood coming from fissure under hill (7)
TORRENT : A word from Celtic for a hill and then a fissure or tear.

22d     Parking on road the wrong way is punishable in law (5)
PENAL : P(arking), then the reversal of a small roadway.

24d     Spike may be mistaken getting power for women (5)
PRONG : Start with a word meaning mistaken and replace its initial W(omen) with P(ower).

25d     Occasionally calm second rounds (4)
AMMO : The second and fourth letters of calm, then a second or short period of time.

Quickie pun    nigh    +    towels    =    night owls

115 comments on “DT 29811
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  1. It’s been a long time since I struggled with a back-pager to this extent. In my humble opinion, this was a solid Toughie. A single across clue solved on the first pass, and only 6 downs. After much perspiration, and **** time, I was still left with 4 to go. At 16d I could see the anagram fodder and guessed the type of layer we were looking for but it was a word I didn’t know. 4d I should have got. 18a&d were the other pair left, and even with the use of some electrons, they still remained blank.It turns out I didn’t know 18a either.

    There has been some discussion recently about whether we want to see new words in a puzzle. My take is this. It depends on where you are solving them. If you have access to a dictionary or electronics, then it is possible to crack them. However, some people, myself included, do not have access to any ‘outside help’ when first attempting the puzzle, and then unknown words are a right pain in the fundament.

    Many thanks to the setter and the 2 Ks.

    1. I think it’s safe to say that you absolutely hate not oft used words appearing in a crossword with a passion…and then some!

    2. Having left school two weeks after my fifteenth birthday with no qualifications whatsoever, its fair to say that I had much to learn. If my mother hadn’t encouraged me into trying general knowledge crosswords I would probably never have known half the GK & ‘trivia’ that now occupies my cranium. I discovered cryptics in my early twenties and have been hooked ever since. New words and fresh knowledge I still welcome, even in my 79th year. It’s NEVER too late to learn. Btw, A super puzzle today and a new word learned in 16d – remembering it for future reference is another thing altogether ;-)

  2. I too found this difficult to start with but finished off in a perfect Wednesday time.

    Thanks to the setter for an enjoyable crossword and to the 2Ks for the equally enjoyable blog

  3. 2.5*/4.5*. I enjoyed this a lot and learnt two new things along the way. I didn’t know that 27a could mean the president of a yacht club – I must try to remember that if ever I meet one! And 16d was a new word for me. However, both were fairly clued so no problem to solve.

    Having solved 1a at the outset I did have a problem with 2d which held me up slightly in the NW corner. Aha, I thought, what 5-letter language begins with an A and contains a Z? Anzio – a programming language – which fits nicely with a Zulu inside AN IO (Investigating Officer). Wrong!

    I am including the excellent Spoonerism in 28a on my podium today alongside 19a & 22d.

    Many thanks to Jay and the 2Ks.

    1. 27a crops up a lot in The Body on the Beach, the first of the Fethering Mysteries by Simon Brett — except I didn’t realize that was the official title until this crossword (thank you, Jay!); I’d just wrongly presumed the person in question had been an actual 27a in the navy before their retirement of being in charge of the yacht club. Clearly I should’ve looked it up at the time.

      Anyway, Simon Brett’s books are enjoyable ‘cosy crime’, and I’d recommend them to anybody who liked, for instance, Richard Osman’s recent novels featuring retirement home amateur detectives.

      1. Thanks for that comment, Smylers. I was at the same school as Simon Brett and roughly contemporary with him. I followed his writing career with interest and read several of his novels longer ago than I care to remember, but they were always a non-taxing, rattling good read.

    2. I really enjoyed this and did not find it particularly tricky (2.5*/5*) apart from 16d, which held me up a bit and was my COTD. Other fine clues included the amusing cryptic definition 3d and 1d, 23a and 18d. Crosswords show that one man’s meat is another man’s poIson. Yesterday, I was in the minority, not being able to get on the compiler’s wavelength. Today, in the minority again, I loved this puzzle, whilst others struggleda bit. Hey ho, that’s what makes life interesting. Thankscto the Kiwis for the hints and to the compiler.

    1. It is unlikely to be wrong Gabbler. The setter will be sure of himself. It will have to get by a test solver. The puzzles editor will have seen it. Mistakes happen but not often. Usually those calling out mistakes are the ones proven to be wrong. Thanks for commenting and welcome to the blog. If you really want to find mistakes my review of tomorrow’s Giovanni puzzle will be published at 11.00am tomorrow. You are sure to find a couple of errors in there

    2. According to the BRB supine (lying on the back; leaning backward) is (sort of) the opposite of prone (with face downward; in Chambers Thesaurus, face down). Other sources define them both as generally lying/laid flat or horizontal. So, you pays your money and you takes your choice. This point has been discussed on here previously.

      1. If anyone is interested, in medicine supine specifically means lying on one’s back; prone, on one’s front. Supination of the wrist means turning the palm to face forwards, and pronation is turning it behind. Covid patients on ICU are pronated to help them breathe…😊

    3. They both mean lying down, but one means flat on your back facing down and the other facing up; I can never remember which is which.

      1. Just noted my rubbish, how can you be flat on your back and face down? When I typed medical records I always got them confused, seems age has not improved me.

      1. Prone and Supine (like so many other English words) are both derived from Latin. My Latin dictionary translates “Pronus” as lying flat face-down and “Supinus” as lying flat face-up.

        “Cruciverbalist” is another classic Latin derivation.

        Non carborundum illegitimi!

  4. I thought this (with the possible exception of the weak 18a) was excellent.
    I liked the DD at 5d, the clever reverse lurker at 18d, amusing 1a and the Spoonerism but my podium consists of 9,13&21a. Anyone else think of The Beatles re 8d?
    2/4.5*
    Many thanks to Jay (seemed like one of his) and the 2Ks for brightening a wet South Devon morning (with occasional bursts of sun).

  5. Some tricky parsing today, failed to start in the NW corner and filled in the lower half before the rest were randomly solved !
    Last in was 18a and I assumed that the definition for ‘tank’was on the lines of the camel being the ship of the desert.
    Liked 17d and 21a, favourite was 27a for the surface.
    Another iffy Spoonerism, best to go for the bung in approach.
    Agree with the 2K’s ***/****-thanks for the pics and our setter fir the enjoyment.

    1. No Beaver, Mr Wiki confirmed”landship” referred to the fact that the tank design cme through the Landship Committee which initially set out to design much larger vehicles . The derivation of tank is interesting in itself.

        1. G. From Wiki, no idea if it’s right or not:

          Why is a military vehicle called a tank?
          The name ‘tank’ came from British attempts to ensure the secrecy of the new weapons under the guise of water tanks. During the First World War, Britain began the serious development of the tank. … Britain used tanks in combat for the first time in the Battle of Flers-Courcelette on 15 September 1916.

      1. Amazing that my father served in the 17th/21st Lancers, a tank regiment, and in all the conversations at endless reunions etc I never heard a tank referred to as a land ship. Not that that means anything really other than it would seem not to be common usage. I await the firing squad.

        1. I served with the 17/21st. in 73/74, in Wolfenbuttel, I was REME attached, a very interesting time if my memory serves me correctly.

  6. A steady solve with a couple of centuries delay with 18a and 18d, my last two standing. I’ve no idea why I didn’t spot the reverse lurker in 18d for so long. With 18a I couldn’t get longship out of my head thinking the answer might have something to do with the longships lighthouse off Lands End. But then I couldn’t see the reason for the tank. In the end it was a bit of a guess which proved to be correct. ***/**** Favourite 27a. That one seems a fairly typical Jay clue but I’m not so sure about the rest of it. Thanks to all.

  7. I spent too much time trying to think of synonyms for ‘doorstep’ until that lurker reared up and made me look silly, but solving that one led me to that tank in 18a, a rather odd clue (I agree with SL). Beyond that, I rather liked 2, 4, & 8d, as well as that Spoonerism and the duckbill platypus in 16d, a word I did know from the life I once lived on another planet. Very enjoyable, though perhaps lacking some of the crispiness we’ve come to expect from our usual Wednesday setter. Thanks to the Kiwis and today’s setter. 2.5* / 3.5*

    Both of our teams, the Braves and the Red Sox, bit the dust last night, though both are still very much alive in the championship playoffs. Hope springs eternal.

    1. Robert, I too spent ages thinking of doorsteps and in fact that was my last one in and I had to consult Mr & Mrs Kiwi. Fancy not getting a reverse lurker!

  8. Great stuff, the email arrived again today so I’m a happy bunny. Not the easiest puzzle but very enjoyable. Didn’t know the word for the layer but quickly realised what the first three letters would be. I didn’t spot the lurker in 18d for ages. One of my best friend from school’s Dad was Commodore of Portsmouth Harbour. It was a very posh ‘digs’ being waited upon by ‘batmen’ at the table, most intimidating aged about 14. I took a dollop of horseradish sauce and put a liberal helping on my beef. It was obviously home-made horseradish and not from a jar. My head nearly blew off and tears poured down my face and I felt wretchedly embarrassed and cringe at it now 50+ years on! hey ho. Thanks to the setter and 2 Kiwis.

  9. Apart from a spelling check, completed unaided but, in retrospect, I took far too long.
    Some really brilliant clues eg 21a.
    Love any clue which involves Spooner, in this case, 28a.
    All in all, very enjoyable.
    Many thanks to the setter and the 2Kiwis.

  10. I thought ***/** and like Robert Clark focused to much on the doorstep at 18d. I guessed 18a but had never seen that word before. Similarly 16d. I found it all a bit of a struggle but did enjoy 28a which I don’t normally with Spoonerisms so that gets my COTD. Thanks to the 2K’s and our setter for his (or of course her) efforts

  11. Another superb puzzle from Jay. A fun solve with the well hidden lurker hiding well until the end. Django has set an accessible and good fun Toughie today. Thanks to our setter and our friends from the other side of the world

  12. This was a nice challenge. Many thanks to the setter. I, too, have always thought supine and prone were opposites, but if several thesauruses support the setter, who am I to quibble. I didn’t much like 18a. I did like the reverse lurker at 18d – it took a while to spot it. 1a and 3d are my joint favourites today.

  13. I set off in spritely fashion but got bogged down by 13a, brought about by my wrong “split hair” for 3D and struggled with 18 a and d, until resorting to B.D where all was revealed. By the way, I believe your difficulty and enjoyment ratings are based on a maximum of 5, but how is the former assessed? Is it on time taken and if so what are the parameters, please. Your blog is a huge help to someone like me who came to cryptics quite late in life. Many thanks, David.

    1. Time taken is relative to how long you usually take over a puzzle. There are no hard and fast rules and the same goes for enjoyment. Some we like a lot and some less so.

  14. Well that’s it, I will throw my teddy out of the pram, once again the setter has used a word I have never heard of,16d,I will now go and sulk🤪. I must be improving, three puzzles in a row completed so far, must get the builders in to widen the doors so my head will go through. Very enjoyable puzzle from the master setter( in my opinion) so thanks to him and the 2Ks.

    1. Please don’t punish teddy. Be like me and love each crossword that comes along, I just marvel that someone somewhere spends so much time to give me a diversion to life’s many problems! And that someone else bothers to explain the bits I don’t understand.

      1. Daisy, I was trying to be ironic ,and obviously failing ,hence the 🤪 at the end of the sentence . I am in total agreement with you, so teddy is safe😁.

  15. Tough but fair, I thought. I thought I had finished unaided but had put “Longship” in at 18a. Must admit to never having heard of the answer. Anyway, just the right amount of straightforward clues and head scratchers. All in all, very satisfying. My COTD is the lego at 21a. I solved 18d without noticing it was a lurker. No idea how.

    Many thanks to the setter and to the 2Kiwis.

    1. I too came up with the answer before I worked out it was a lurker. A bit of muttering to self, “why is it limpet?” before the penny finally dropped.

  16. Learned something new in 18a and I did delay entering 16d until checkers were in place and I could be a little more certain of the spelling.
    For once, I quite enjoyed the Spoonerism and my favourite was the concise 19a.

    Thanks to Jay and to our 2Ks for the review and the pic of the elegant 15a.

  17. I thought this was excellent, being a tad more difficult than the usual Wednesday production. Great clues, a decent challenge and much enjoyment. I’ve ticked quite a few but will mention 28a – a cracking Spoonerism with a proper definition. 3*, 4*.

  18. Late commenting today, a mark of how difficult I found the puzzle. I could solve only 21 clues out of 30. So not my favourite.
    On the brighter side I had my COVID-19 booster this morning, so all is right with the world.
    Thanks to the 2Ks and the setter

        1. Well, apart from feeling tired, things are better now, LROK so it doesn’t last long. Not everyone reacts so you could well be one who doesn’t. If not, as SpottedJaguar says, “See you on Monday!” :smile:

  19. I found this difficult. I could not get 18a and 18d without electronic help as I completely missed the lurker and did not know the word at 18a. I am in the prone is the opposite of supine camp, but, if the thesauruses are against me, I must be wrong. (Again).
    Thanks to the setter and to the 2 Kiwis.

    Lovely sunny day here but a cold blustery wind. At least the rain has stopped.

  20. Another day, another Beatles reference (8d)

    I found I bunged about half in with nary a care in the world and then the second half was very tricky indeed. It’s not the biggest issue ever, but my lightly held view is that I prefer not to learn new words (hello 16d!) as I like to solve the crossword without reference to tomes if possible. However, I know that others are of an opposing view.

    Today’s crossword soundtrack: The Beatles – White Album (with several tracks skipped)

    Thanks to Jay and the 2Ks

    1. Terence I am a bit bemused by your statement that you prefer not to learn new words, I understand that you prefer to complete these puzzles with whatever knowledge you have, but surely that is a bit limiting, and after all the setters cannot be expected to have knowledge of what people know or don’t know. Please don’t be offended as I enjoy reading your posts, although not always your music selection 🤪.

      1. Ha! Fair enough Dave. As I said, I hold the view lightly and I’m not passionate about it. I think most people probably oppose my view. You’re right of course – no setter can know the limits of each of our knowledge – but I find it frustrating when I have one final clue to solve and it turns out to be some barely known chap from an obscure Chinese dynasty. If 99% of solvers need to reach for an encyclopedia then I propose the setter should think again.

  21. Another excellent Jay production – thanks to him and the 2Ks.
    I thought the Spoonerism was as good as they get – if they were all as fine as this we’d have no reason to complain about them.
    Top clues for me were 28a, 3d and 18d.

    1. I agree Gazza – I sometimes groan at the approach of William Spooner but this one was excellent (and not too hard to unravel!).

  22. I enjoyed this although required online confirmation of 16d and 18a. I’m not usually a fan of Spooner but a clear defintion coupled with plenty of checkers came to my rescue. 18d was my favourite. Thanks to 2Ks and today’s setter.

  23. On the Tougher side of the Wednesday spectrum for me with SW last to yield. Completed in *** time with **** enjoyment.
    Vaguely heard of 16d remembered 18a from reading a book on the development of the tank & the Battle of Cambrai.
    28a my COTD. Like Spooerisms when I get them and very frustrating when I don’t
    Thanks to setter & 2Ks for the review.
    What with Canada supplying the latest Ladies’ tennis star and New Zealand the men’s the colonies are doing British sport proud.

    1. I have sworn blind that clue was from today’s Toughie puzzle. That’s what comes from moving to Leicestershire

  24. Another great puzzle for Wednesday this week with Jay. 2.5*/**** for me. Some tricky clues, but with perseverance, solved without hints again.
    Favourites today include 1a, 21a, 23a, 28a, 1d & 18d with winner being 1a
    Fun puzzle and enjoyable to complete.

    Thanks to the 3 birds for puzzle and hints

  25. Lovely, lovely puzzle, bang on wavelength from the off and in consequnce rattled through, the pen barely leaving the paper – was left wondering whether this was a Campbell puzzle on the wrong day but it feels more like a Jayday rather than a Monday. Nothing esoteric, nothing arcane, all very fairly and accurately clued with precision and style, plenty of laughs throughout.

    HMs to 10a, 13a, 21a, 3d, 18d and 28a (& I’m not the greatest fan of Spoonerisms); COTD to the wonderful 27a.

    1* / 4*

    Many thanks to Jay(?) and to the 2Ks.

  26. The crossword took me far longer than my normal solving time, but there was a sense of satisfaction when I’d finished. I resisted putting “Bantu” into 2d until I had some checking letters. I read the definition as “Language of Zulu”. 18d was my last in, and I have to admit to cheating to get the answer as I put the clue into a crossword solver. I’m now quite cross. The reverse lurker was so obvious. Favourites were 13a and 28a. I do like a spoonerism.

  27. Late coming to this, but I shot out of the gate then came to a crunching halt with half a dozen to do. The usual trick of putting it down, doing something else then returning to it worked nicely. Unusually for me, I loved the perfect Spoonerism and that became my favourite clue.

    Thanks to Jay for the tussle and to the 2Ks.

  28. Oh I love it! We are so diverse in our opinions, it makes for fun reading. I/we finished it within our ‘lunch hour’ but I had to seek help for 18a and d. Everything else was spot on, I was onto a layer, as in eggs, so went to the dictionary and looked up ovi. All those years of Latin pay off. I don’t think that is cheating, it’s all part of the exercise. I put stars against 13,21,27 & 28a and 3, 16 and 17d but it was really all good, thank you Mr Setter (Jay?) and Kiwis for your assistance. We have April here
    Warm brilliant sunshine then sudden fierce showers. Very odd.

  29. Sailed through the East then made a break to take part in a French conversation session which served to refresh the grey matter so that on return the West felt less challenging. 18a/18d foxed me as reverse lurker passed me by whilst I worked fruitlessly on sandwich and then threshold! Initial Fav was 17d but then 16d joined that thanks to crafty surface making a welcome vocabulary addition for me. Always forget the 25d rounds. Thank you Jay and the 2Kiwis.

  30. I did find this a bit tricky, The reverse lurker and the consumer at 1a needed a nudge from the 2K’s, but for once the dreaded spoonerism came to mind quite readily. Every day is a schoolday re 18a and 16d but fairly clued and checkers helped too. The answer to 14d came before the parsing and I had to reverse engineer the clue a bit but on the whole a pleasant diversion.
    Thanks to setter and 2K’s
    P.S. I did think of the Beatles re 8d but also the rather excellent cover by Siouxsie and the Banshees

  31. Has there ever been such consensus as today with 18a and 18d? I never did get 18a, but spotted the lurker at 18d just as I was about to call pax. A very tricky puzzle. I needed e-help to solve the anagram at 16d; I learnt a new word, my day has not been wasted. Godson was 27a of Montego Bay Yacht Club, no problem there.
    Thanks Jay, loads of fun today and lots of good stuff. I even liked the Spoonerism, normally my bête noir. Also thanks to the 2Kiwis for a super blog and pics.

  32. This one has cheered me up – hurray!
    I admit I’m a very long way from finishing but. . . .
    I’ve started recently just by trying every crossword each day – mainly because I miss them SO badly.
    Most of the attempts I’ve had have been mainly Thursdays for obvious reasons.
    Oh well, here I go –
    Thanks to Jay and to the K’s.

      1. Thanks – we’ll see about getting there or not – one for sure is that I’ll be far more cheerful once I’m at least TRYING!

    1. Fings ain’t wot they used to be without you Kath but it’s great to know you are once more getting some pleasure from crossword activity. Long may it last so that you are soon regularly amongst us again. 🌈💐.

    2. You’re doing really well by just getting back into it and I’m sure your efforts will pay off as you gradually “rewire”. It must be incredibly frustrating though considering your ability and experience before.

  33. Morning all.
    So it wasn’t just us who found it a bit trickier than normal.
    We did know the answer to 16d so no problem there. It was 18a where we acquired our new knowledge.
    Still a bit chilly here in NZ so have our heater on again this morning to warm us a little before the sun rises to do the job.
    Cheers.

  34. Found this on the tricky side, mainly because one of my “bankers” was starship at 18a it all fitted in so nicely ****/*** 😬 Favourites were: 19, 21, 23 and 27a along with 3d 😃 Sorry Kath, so nice to see you coming back 🤗 Thanks to the 2xKs and to Jay

  35. A late post. Early morning golf where incredibly we stayed dry despite downpours all around us. Did the puzzle on my return lying on the bed nursing a very painful back (exacerbated by 3 hrs of watching the underwhelming Bond movie last night – my first somewhat wary venture to the cinema post Covid) then flaked out. As for the puzzle – wot Jonners said.
    Thanks to Jay & 2Ks

  36. As usual with Jay reasonably straightforward until it became utterly, words no-one has heard of, not. I was disappointed at not spotting the reverse lurker at 18d sooner but had to use the monkey and the typewriter method to solve 18a and 16d. Hey ho! Favourite was 17d thanks to Jay and 2 K’s

  37. It would have helped if I had not put split hair for 3d and prescient for 5d. Trouble with 18a and d which would have been alleviated had I spotted reverse lurker. Favourite 1a. Thanks Jay and 2Ks and Kath for dropping in.

  38. Another great Jay day! Only quibble is that neither the first nor the last words of 18d doorstep and up are the solution. No wonder many of us failed to spot the lurker answer!

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