Rookie Corner 537

24 comments on “Rookie Corner 537”

1. Sorry Conference Match not very enjoyable and many of the clues seem to be ‘missing something.’ Perhaps the most obvious is that the 9a hospital department is not represented by just two letters (in Chambers).

   Thanks for the challenge, I will await the wisdom of Prolixic with interest.

2. Thanks in advance for the review and any comments – and in arrears for the one that was posted before I got up.
   They will all be read. If there are any questions I’ll try to reply later, but I work extended hours on Mondays and may run out of time today.

3. Welcome to Rookie Corner, CM. This was a curate’s egg for me both in terms of enjoyment and difficulty. There were certainly some promising signs but there were also several clues which either didn’t work or were in the “nearly but not quite” category. Parts of the solve were straightforward and parts were extremely tough.

   My detailed comments are as follows:
   1a – the wordplay is good but the definition (“a higher order”) is a puzzle not only to me but also to both Chambers and Collins.
   9a – the abbreviation for the hospital department is A&E not AE.
   12a – the answer is obvious from the definition and checking letters but the wordplay is a complete mystery.
   15a – the definition baffles me.
   19a – “per” means “for every” not “for”.
   23a – as the definition is whimsical, the clue might benefit from a question mark.
   2d – same comment as for 12a.
   4d – a clue which has developed a life of its own! The surface is clunky and it feels as if it has been thrown together with “one amongst” being added almost as an afterthought. When this happens, it is usually a good time to consider rewriting the whole clue. Incidentally, French should be capitalised.
   14d, 17d – nouns tend not to work as anagram indicators.

   I ticked 5a, 17a, 20a, 8d & 15d.

   Well done and thank you, CM. Please heed the comments made on this blog as well as Prolixic’s wise words, and I look forward to your next offering.

   1. 1a, 12a, 15a, 2d – see separate comment.

      9a. True, but if you asked someone to tell you the first two letters of the answer I reckon it’s odds on the reply would be A&E. You clearly solved it, so I don’t think you were hard done by. 14d. 17d. Noted. For me all 3 fall under the heading of ‘you’re right, but I don’t care’. That may make me more of a cryptic crossword libertarian than many here.

      19a. Correct. I know some basic Italian, where it does just mean for, and the more precise definition seems to have been replaced in my brain. One for me to watch out per.

      23a. Also fair.

      4d. Yes. The surface was supposed to be fishing themed and ‘amongst the fish’ can be said as a description of someone who’s having a good run of catches. Too obscure. Too focused on the surface reading. I should have just given this up as a bad idea. Yes – French should have been capitalised. That’s just wrong.

      Thanks for the comments

4. Welcome to Rookie Corner Conference Match

   It took me a while to get on your ‘wavelength’ – the first clue I solved was 24a followed by 25a and I then worked from the bottom back up, with the SE corner completed before many solutions were written in elsewhere. I had to reveal letters to sort out the NW corner. Like RD, I have no idea about the ‘higher order’ in 1a or what the solution has to do with jam tomorrow in 15a. I don’t see where the E comes from in 12a.

   There are some very promising parts to this crossword, I particularly liked 15d, so please come back with another crossword once you have taken on board the points Prolixic will make in his review, and comments from other solvers during the day

   1. Thanks. I think I answered these points already so I won’t repeat myself. Whether the answers help is a different matter. The E will depend on what’s viewed as an acceptable abbreviation.

5. Welcome Conference Match.
   My experience here was very much like that of CS; I got started at the bottom, worked my way up the grid and had to reveal letters in the top left corner to finish.
   Like RD there are several clues I don’t fully understand. I presume that 12a is a very cryptic way of saying ‘Germany, eastern part’ but it needs at least one question mark in my opinion.
   I liked several clues (25a, 7d and 16d for example) but I thought the puzzle was too tricky for Rookie Corner.
   Do take on board Prolixic’s advice and return with a more friendly puzzle.

   1. Didn’t think of ‘Germany, eastern part’.
      Was it actually difficult as a whole, or did it just have a few clues that were wayward? I’m unable to judge.
      Thanks for the comments.

6. Thanks for the puzzle Conference Match. Like everyone else I found it quite tricky, but I did manage to solve it with a little bit of Googling.

   I assume 1a is referring to a higher order of equation (quadratic, cubic, quartic… septic)? I think you could definitely use a bit of extra clarification here (maybe something like “higher order function” at least) as I suspect it’s not something the average non-mathematician is going to be aware of, especially when it’s not supported in the dictionary.

   In 10a, is “Screen” really a correct definition? It should maybe be “Type of screen”, or have some kind of definition-by-example indicator, I think.

   In 11a, I’m not convinced it’s clear from the wordplay that you need to separately insert the 2 abbreviations into the lies (I could be wrong on this though).

   I have no real clue what’s going on with the wordplay in 12a and 2d, or the definition in 15a I’m afraid.

   I liked 5a, 6d, 8d, 15d and 16d.

   Thanks in advance to Prolixic, and I look forward to your next puzzle.

   1. That’s probably all fair comment.
      10a is a bit vague, but I googled looking for a better option and discovered it wasn’t even very original, so it seems to be a well trodden slightly poor clue.
      I wondered about 11. I think you’re right, but I leant more towards ‘is it fair’ than ‘is it precise’. If enough people solved it, then I think it wasn’t that material. If they didn’t, it probably wasn’t fair.
      The rest I think I’ve already commented on.

7. Welcome to the corner, Conference Match. I did find it very difficult to get onto your wavelength and suspect you may have been guilty of adopting the mantra of ‘I know what I mean’ and forgetting that the poor solvers don’t until you give them enough pointers!
   I think that RD has covered all the individual queries that I’d noted and I’m looking forward to getting Prolixic’s take on several clues. The simplest clues worked best – 5&20a plus 8d hit the spot for me.
   I’d recommend that you get a test solver on board – someone who simply solves the puzzle without any input from you beyond furnishing them with the clues.

   1. Isn’t the point of Rookie Corner that we are (collectively) the setter’s test solvers? The guidelines say: “You are invited to adopt the role of test solver and to provide feedback.”

      Obviously if anybody has a test solver available and wishes to run their puzzles by them before submitting to Rookie Corner, that’s fine — but it doesn’t sound like it should be expected for rookies to have a test solver before submitting here.

      1. Thanks, I was going to make that point myself. A number of test solvers have provided useful feedback today.

   2. Well, I definitely didn’t intentionally adopt that mantra. Perhaps worth pointing out that I don’t know any of the solvers or their knowledge or interests, so it’s hard to judge required difficulty. I’d probably rather err on the side of too hard rather than too easy – though I’d want it to be fair, which a few clues weren’t.

8. Welcome, CM.

   RD has summed things up very well, as usual. It was indeed a mixed bag, some good clues like 5a, 8d etc. and some very ambitious or faulty ones, some of which were not fair to the solver I’d suggest. “Lost” was repeated as a deletion indicator and 21a is “wordplay provide definition”, i.e. the cryptic grammar doesn’t work. I think 17a needs some sort of indicator and I’m another who hates nouns being plonked after anagram fodder, like “operations” in 17d. The surface readings were far from the worst we’ve seen in Rookie Corner, but several could have been a lot smoother.

   Overall, not a bad puzzle by any means, but I would expect to see many fewer crosses on my printed page next time.

   Many thanks, CM.

   1. Thanks for the comments. The surface readings could definitely use some work and ‘ambitious’ is probably a generous definition. It’s also a good spot with the double lost.

      On the other points, apologies to you as well as a Rabbit Dave for 17d, but since it was intentional I’m unlikely to take much notice of this point. Similarly, I was expecting someone to comment about 17a. It’s only 4 letters long, they are all checked and I would guess a lot of solvers can pick out the most likely definition and solve it as though it were a quick crossword clue. I understand your point, but I’m going to take a lot of convincing you’ve been unfairly treated.

      I’m most curious about 21a though. A variation on this point seems to crop up most weeks. Sometimes I see it. Sometimes I don’t. What is it you don’t like here – the clue order or the use of ‘provide’ without an s?

9. Thank you for the puzzle, Conference Match. We did struggle to complete it and we had to reveal letters and then couldn’t always understand the answer from the clue. We shall look forward to Prolixic enlightening us tomorrow. We look forward to your next puzzle.

10. Thanks to all those who’ve commented so far. Constructive feedback will still be welcomed from anyone else wishing to express an opinion.

    That was more interesting than I expected. I had an idea, whilst setting them, that some clues would prove popular and unpopular, but I was largely wrong about which clues would be which.

    A question – I haven’t seen an indication of expected level of difficulty. Is there something to aim at?
    I’m not sure how much it actually matters. Though I’d accept some clues might have been unfair to the solver, difficulty feels more subjective and largely out of my control at the moment.

    In terms of the commonly mentioned problem clues:

    1a – This is one I expected to be contentious. Duncan has correctly identified what I was aiming at. It is in some dictionaries, though it’s rare and the definition is admittedly more niche still. I gambled that people might know the terms quadratic and cubic and make a leap from there – after all the prefix is hardly unusual. The software I was using chose the word and it seemed more fun than writing a clue about infections or tanks. I should probably have just replaced the word. That’s more useful as feedback than you might expect – even if was no fun for solvers.

    12a – Saxony is one of the states that makes up Germany. The wordplay was intended to be an abbreviation for Germany followed by a word meaning a section of the whole. For the abbreviation – I was thinking 2 letter internet country code rather than car registration plate, so not quite what Gazza suggested though given the geography I like that interpretation. May steal that for future use elsewhere. Surprised by this one. I thought it was pretty fair and wasn’t really expecting it to generate any comment. It probably does need a question mark.

    15a – Definition. As a noun – something that you aim for when making jam. As a plural, these would offer literal, rather than figurative, jam tomorrow. Or in my case 2 minutes after it cools. No idea how common this is, or which dictionaries it can be found in. In recipes though – it’s quite common.

    2d – Technology themed. Apple make products prefixed i. I’m guessing some of you will be using one – that part doesn’t feel too bad. What probably was a stretch is the use of ‘core’ as a term for some of the specific parts used in the component electronics. That was intended to lead to iPiece – which could be heard differently as something used for seeing things.

    Separate responses may follow on other points raised.

    Thanks again.

11. Hi CM. Thanks for a largely enjoyable and certainly very challenging puzzle. You ask about difficulty, and for what it’s worth, in RC I personally look for setters to focus on getting the basics right, rather than making a puzzle overly convoluted. For example things like the crossword grammar, surface reads, accuracy of definitions, synonyms etc.

    The three UK dictionaries that seem to be acceptable sources are, I would say, Chambers, Collins and the OED.

    As to the puzzle itself, whilst there was a lot to admire, there were too many clues that didn’t quite work, or which were too loosely defined, or were simply confusingly written.

    Among these were 1a (biffed but unparsable), 10a (plasma is not itself a screen), 11a (the instructions don’t work for me), 15a (fortunately I make jam and every letter was checked, otherwise I had no idea what’s going on), 17a (unless this is a ‘lift and separate’, where’s the lurker indicator?), 19a (per / for), 25a (needs a ? or other indicator), 1d (unconvinced that core and piece are synonymous) and the anagram indicators in 14d & 17d.

    Highlights: 5a, 22a, 25a, 7d, 8d, 15d, 18d, 19d.

    Although I’m not convinced you’re that receptive to what we all hope is positive and constructive criticism, do please take on board the comments everyone above has made, and especially those from Prolixic. I’d very much look forward to another puzzle from you.

    Thanks again, and in advance also to Prolixic.

    1. Thanks.

       Looking again at 2d – I wasn’t intending core as a direct synonym for piece, so much as an example. Since the question mark appears at the end of the clue that probably means the clue needed a ‘perhaps’ or a ‘maybe’. Even then though, it’s probably too specialist a term.
       I think the rest of the points are repeats, so I’ve noted your reinforcement of the comments.

       I’m certainly receptive to constructive criticism. That is rather the point of submitting something here. If I didn’t value the feedback, I would have been wasting my time. That doesn’t mean I agree with all the points though. Consider the use of nouns as anagram indicators. One or two commenters make this point almost every week. Prolixic usually picks up setters – often with wording such as “some editors will not allow” – but has also provided a useful setters guide which is available on the Rookie Corner page and contains these two paragraphs:
       ——-
       Anagram indicators: Is “Organisation” a valid anagram indicator? The Ximenean would say that “Organisation” is a noun and therefore is incapable of indicating an anagram which requires some sense of action – though they might allow “Organisation of X”. The Libertarian would allow organisation as an anagram indicator.
       ——-
       Setters providing crosswords for the Not The Saturday Prize Puzzle, Monthly Prize Puzzles and Rookie Corner on Big Dave’s site are not expected to follow a set house style or adopt formal Ximenean or Libertarian rules…
       ——-
       Given those lines, this particular feedback looks like little more than personal preference – though, given the content of this site, a preference shaped by the house style of the Telegraph. I’m just not worried about this issue – I’d rather someone used a noun as an indicator than used a verb which is tenuous – so I’m choosing to put more weight on some other comments.

12. Many thanks for the review, Prolixic. I do hope that Conference Match makes good use of your advice when compiling future puzzles.

13. I hadn’t listened to anything by Morricone for ages. Thanks for that prompt as well as the review. I hope the latter wasn’t too much of a Mission.

    That was very thorough and particularly useful in terms of cryptic grammar. Reading a couple of those back, I’m clearly focusing on the surface reading not the wordplay. I’m still slightly lost on 4d though. Perhaps I’m being too literal, but what does rod tip mean if not tip of the rod?

    I see three main themes to work on here:
    1. Removing clues which might require more specialist knowledge.
    2. Improving the cryptic grammar.
    3. Looking out for repetition.

    A lot of the rest looks a bit more subjective and less of a consideration.

    I shall probably be back with another attempt at some point. It could be some months away though.

    Thanks again.

    1. Hi, Conference Match. There are various phrases that somebody, for instance a toddler or somebody learning English as a second language, could say which only really could mean one thing — but it still doesn’t mean that they are a valid way of saying that in standard English.

       So one can say “the end of the world” or “the world’s end”, but put “the world end” in a sentence and it sounds wrong, even if there only could be one meaning. Generally the possessive is needed to indicate the “of”.

       However the phrase “cue tip” is well-known in snooker, and it seems that for anglers there is such a thing as a rod tip — which sounds like you might be OK with using it in 4d, except it turns out a rod tip separate item which fits on the end of the rod, not just referring to the end of the rod itself: you put the rod tip on the tip of the rod. So, somewhat unexpectedly (at least to me when I started writing this paragraph!), it turns out that “rod tip” can (and indeed does) mean something different to the tip of the rod. Phew!

       Similarly for 21a, “Greeting provide high point” isn’t grammatical English. As you suggest, adding an -s would work “Greeting provides high point” sounds fine, but such an -s sometimes fixes the cryptic reading while spoiling the surface. In those cases, adding -ing instead may work for both: “Greeting providing high point” is a perfectly valid noun phrase.

       And for what it’s worth, I loved 7d, and while I accept Prolixic’s point that merely “stance” on its own is a synonym of the definition as a noun, I think I can just about come up with a sentence where “in stance” can substitute for the definition as an adjective. Either way, I was enjoying the clue so much that I didn’t really stop to quibble with minor technicalities — which is probably the most dangerous feedback it is possible to give you at this stage! (Sorry about that.)

       Good luck with your second puzzle, and I look forward to seeing it.

       1. Thanks for taking time to answer. That’s very helpful. I haven’t fished in 30 years, or played snooker in 10 for that matter, but in both cases I take the tip to be two things:
          1. A replacement part to be fitted in the event of damage.
          2. The end of the tool being used.

          While a possessive is grammatically correct, my experience is that it’s rarely, if ever, used – to the extent that rod’s tip actually sounds wrong. Hence my confusion. To me, cue tip and rod tip both fall into the same category as team leader and not into the same category as ‘World end’.
          Of course, this may not actually be the view of many anglers. Even if it is, I’ve now appreciated that the usage could fall under ‘specialist knowledge – take extra care’. After one crossword, this appears to include fishing, jam making, maths and technology.

          On the other hand I was expecting complaints about 8d and I’m astonished to find that Prague football teams seem to be both general knowledge and popular clue content.

          For 7d, I’ve realised that ‘for example’ was doing double duty – both as definition and as an indicator that ‘at ease’ was intended as an example not a direct synonym. It’s a few weeks since I wrote the puzzle, but I think I was aiming at something like 5d from the Monday Telegraph puzzle where the whole serves as both wordplay and definition.

          This person’s a leader in mosque? (4)

          I have no burning desire to get a crossword into a national paper, so if you solved the clue and liked it, that’s good enough for me.

          Thanks again.

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