Comments on: ST 2506

By: petebiddlecombe

petebiddlecombe — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:21:46 +0000

I have no problem with “outside”, as this is in modern vocabulary and “surrounding” is a possible meaning as well as “exterior to”. My problem with the archaic meaning of “without” for “surrounding” is that I cannot think of an example with this meaning that would be as recognisable as “An Agony in eight fits” (see today’s stuff on 2509).

It’s not a requirement recognised explicitly by any set of cryptic crossword “rules” I’ve ever seen, but I’m always happier if I can illustrate a meaning with a convincing snippet of English – and for archaic stuff, convincing usually ends up meaning “something I can quote and at least some people will recognise”.

By: Big Dave

Big Dave — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:02:02 +0000

We all have our particular likes and dislikes.

Does this mean that “outside” cannot be used either? And what about “outwith”?

I am happier with “without” meaning surrounding (Chambers – outside the limits of) than I am with “in” joining the wordplay to the definition, as in ST 2509.

By: petebiddlecombe

petebiddlecombe — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:45:36 +0000

The moat could be described as”without the castle”, but this would equally describe a moat outside but not surrounding it. This is true for “outside” too, but I think there’s a case for more precision when using old-fashioned meanings. I can’t support the “used in crossword clues” argument for meanings of words unless the dictionaries start going down that route, but thinking of a particular pet hate, I hope never to see a dictionary definition like “ion: a charge (from cryptic crossword clues)”.

By: Radler

Radler — Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:15:28 +0000

I understand the distinction and agree with you. However, I don’t think “without” precludes the case where the object outside is also “surrounding” – e.g. it would be correct to state that “the moat was without the castle”.
Another thought… The meaning of a word is of course determined by usage. Could its long-standing, frequent (and possibly originally erroneous) use in crossword clues mean that it now really does mean “surrounding”?

By: petebiddlecombe

petebiddlecombe — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:53:13 +0000

If anyone’s still interested …

I explained this badly – the point is that “without” in (e.g.) “there is a green hill far away, without a city wall”, does NOT mean surrounding – the hill is not a circular ridge! As far as I can tell, “outside” can mean “surrounding”, but this meaning of “without” cannot.

By: Big Dave

Big Dave — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:02:41 +0000

Welcome to the blog Radler

I’m very inclined to agree with you. I would be much more concerned with constructs like A B in C meaning to put B in A to get C which is just not English.

By: Radler

Radler — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:29:24 +0000

I take the point that “without” means “outside of” rather than “surrounding, (18dn), but I don’t think that alters its validity in a cryptic clue. Wouldn’t “flower outside of name” just as acceptably allude to the answer as “flower surrounding name”?